Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 21 of 70

Thread: iverson redivivus ...

  1. #1
    raptor 4ever :)
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,566
    Reputatie
    1

    iverson redivivus ...

    ok, la finalul sesonului a fost o mica discutzie pe tema daca iverson in momentul asta are o valoare inferioara lui manu ginobili. Eu am sustzinut ca ginobili e mai valoros si am adus argumentul statistica preferata a lui Hollinger (PER) unde Ginobili e mult superior lui iverson. Azi am dat pe ESPN de un link la un articol din NY Times care a fost scris in 2006, dar a fost respins de la publicare pe motivul ca:
    The reason I was given for this column being rejected will surprise some. What I was told is that this column was unnecessary because people already know that Iverson is inefficient
    partea cea mai importanta din articol este:
    Why is the Answer not the Answer?

    The U.S. Olympic team recently announced the players it will invite to “try-out” for Team USA, and Allen “The Answer” Iverson of the Philadelphia 76ers was not invited.

    Why is “The Answer” not the answer? Iverson is a great scorer, having led the NBA in scoring four times. He can also steal the ball. In fact, he set a record leading the league in steals per game for three consecutive seasons.

    The official story on why Iverson will not be an Olympian focuses on his age in 2008 - 33 - when the games will be played in Beijing. But there might be other reasons not to include Iverson on the Olympic team.

    Our research in sports and economics offers a simple and accurate way to measure productivity in the NBA, and it doesn’t involve looking strictly at points per game. It also doesn’t suggest Iverson is one of the league’s best players.

    Let’s begin with turnovers. Although Iverson has demonstrated the ability to take the ball away from his opponent, he is equally adept at giving it back. In four different seasons Iverson has led the NBA in turnovers per game. In fact, his propensity to give the ball away consistently eclipses his ability to create steals. He would be a better player if he never stole the ball and never turned it over.

    A bigger issue than turnovers is the problem Iverson has with shot selection. Consider his work beyond the NBA’s three point line. For his career Iverson has averaged more than four three point shots per game, or nearly one third of the shots his team takes from this distance. One would think that a player who took this many shots from beyond the arc would convert these shots with some consistency. Well, the average NBA player converts about 36% of these shots. The average Philadelphia 76er not named Iverson has converted on 33% of these shots during Iverson’s career. Iverson, though, has a career average of only 31%.

    Inside the three-point arc the story does not get better. The average NBA player makes 47% of his two-point shots. Iverson’s conversion rate for his career is only 44%. So Iverson does not post lofty points totals because of his efficiency, but primarily because he is willing to take a large number of shots.

    By comparison, Chauncey Billups and Jason Terry, point guards on two of the top teams in the league, are generally more valuable. Billups and Terry don’t score as much as Iverson does, but they score far more efficiently, wasting fewer of their team’s offensive opportunities. This is one reason why Billups and Terry more often leave the court as winners.

    To put Iverson’s scoring in perspective, think about baseball for a moment. Way back in the 1870s baseball began to track batting average. When people began to notice that number of hits per at-bat didn’t tell the whole story, measures like on-base average, slugging average, and even OPS (on-base average plus slugging average) were developed.

    What do all these measures have in common? The answer is efficiency, a topic near and dear to the hearts of economists. Baseball fans know that players should not be evaluated in terms of totals, but rather in terms of efficiency. In basketball, though, this lesson is not often heeded.

    In the 2004 Olympics Iverson led Team USA in scoring, but he was hardly his team’s best player. From three point range, Iverson converted on 37% of his shots, about average for an NBA player, although not quite so good when one considers that the international three point line is closer than the NBA’s arc. From inside the arc Iverson only shot 39%, well below the performance of an average NBA player, and even below what Iverson normally offers in an average NBA contest.

    What should be surprising is that decision-makers on Team USA would allow an inefficient scorer to take the most shots. What isn’t so surprising is that Team USA took the bronze medal, rather than the expected gold.

    Economics teaches that resources must be allocated efficiently if an organization is to maximize the probability of success. Across Iverson’s career he consistently leads his team in shot attempts yet he does not score efficiently. So it is not surprising when Iverson’s team barely win more often than they lose. And since the objective in 2008 is to win the gold medal, perhaps Team USA is wise not to build its team once again around inefficiency.
    articolul complet aici:
    http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/09/...verson-column/

  2. #2
    #3 Irimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Baia Mare
    Posts
    3,917
    Reputatie
    1
    iverson>ginobili
    pana si caseta care e iverson-hater rade de tine...de fapt el rade deobicei de tine
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]5[/COLOR]-[COLOR="Blue"]1[/COLOR]

  3. #3
    Grand Pubah KingMJames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    In mijlocul Universului..
    Posts
    1,177
    Reputatie
    1
    @cgrecu: iti pierzi timpul... desi orice om sanatos la cap si obiectiv l-ar prefera pe ginobili,normal ca iverson e mai bun...(ironie) ...

  4. #4
    #3 Irimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Baia Mare
    Posts
    3,917
    Reputatie
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by KingMJames View Post
    @cgrecu: iti pierzi timpul... desi orice om sanatos la cap si obiectiv l-ar prefera pe ginobili
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]5[/COLOR]-[COLOR="Blue"]1[/COLOR]

  5. #5
    raptor 4ever :)
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,566
    Reputatie
    1
    imi cer scuze, am uitat sa mentzionez ca cei care nu au ceva coerent de zis, mai bine sa taca ... (ironie)

    Evident, un articol intr-unul din cele mai prestigioase ziare din lume (poate chiar cel mai prestigios) nu are nici o valoare in fatza unor argumente asha de solide ca cele exprimate mai sus (ironie). Eu zic de acum inainte, daca avem vreo discutzie pe teme de baschet, sa il intrebam direct pe caseta, care pare a fi autoritatea suprema in materie de baschet ...

    Sincer, posturile puerile de mai sus imi aduc aminte de scandalul care a fost acum vreo 10 ani in romania cind ziarul Academia Catavencu a publicat un articol pe tema Eminescu in care a indraznit sa puna in discutzie talentul "poetului natzional" ...

    Across Iverson’s career he consistently leads his team in shot attempts yet he does not score efficiently. So it is not surprising when Iverson’s teams barely win more often than they lose
    Yup, sounds like a MVP description to me ...

  6. #6
    me BAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    4,470
    Reputatie
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by KingMJames View Post
    @cgrecu: iti pierzi timpul... desi orice om sanatos la cap si obiectiv l-ar prefera pe ginobili,..
    eu nu l-as prefera in locul lui iverson.......no way...individual, nici nu se pot compara....in momentul in care ginobili va duce o echipa de unul singur intr-o finala nba, atunci poate ma razgandesc......
    “I weigh 330,000 pounds…I’m the NBA’s best NFL player, and I’ve always been the sexiest 7-footer in the NBA – for 12 years running.”

  7. #7
    Grand Pubah KingMJames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    In mijlocul Universului..
    Posts
    1,177
    Reputatie
    1
    ok.cand se transfera ginobili in est,in 2001,reluam discutia .parerea mea e ca ar fi putut la fel de bine sa o faca si ginobili...oricum,deja o dau in 'what if'-uri...si totusi,ce poate sa faca iverson ce nu poate sa faca ginobili?individual vorbind.pt ca totusi,ginobili nu este intr-o echipa care sa aiba nevoie sa fie carata.sunt in situatii diferite,complet diferite (ma refer la AI de la Phi).mie inca mi se pare unul dintre cei mai overrated players ever...si garantez ca sunt multi,multi,multi,multi altii care gandesc ca mine...

  8. #8
    rautacios caseta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    6,549
    Reputatie
    1
    ca role player - manu, e clar
    ca star - AI, clar

    daca ai deja un star in echipa, probabil ca e mai bine sa il iei pe manu. inclusiv salary-wise. daca ai o echipa de role-players, atunci AI e mai bun atit pt nr de W cit si pt marketing.

    strict ca jucator, nu poti spune ca manu > iverson. iverson a luat totusi un mvp. si chiar daca a devenit din ce in ce mai ball-hog, mai arogant si mai moron (cu practice), ca talent e clar o raritate.
    Now this, my friend, is gonna be fun

  9. #9
    raptor 4ever :)
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,566
    Reputatie
    1
    faptul ca a luat un mvp e irelevant, intrebarea era daca IN MOMENTUL ASTA e mai bun.

    Ash putea reformula intrebarea in modul urmator:

    daca eshti GM si ai posibilitatea azi sa il semnezi pe Manu si pe AI pentru 3 ani pentru aceeashi suma, il alegi pe AI sau pe Manu?

  10. #10
    me BAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    4,470
    Reputatie
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by cgrecu View Post
    daca eshti GM si ai posibilitatea azi sa il semnezi pe Manu si pe AI pentru 3 ani pentru aceeashi suma, il alegi pe AI sau pe Manu?
    eu l-as alege pe kobe
    “I weigh 330,000 pounds…I’m the NBA’s best NFL player, and I’ve always been the sexiest 7-footer in the NBA – for 12 years running.”

  11. #11
    JABBAri Parker Bogeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Londra
    Posts
    1,982
    Reputatie
    1
    iverson e o mizerie...
    ginobili e un campion + mai are si creier

  12. #12
    VJ Specialist
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Bucuresti, Romania
    Posts
    6,343
    Reputatie
    1
    Cum definesti "o mizerie"?
    "I think right now we are not capable of finding a way to win, or we are unable to, or don't know how to, or something,'' Carter said.

  13. #13
    #3 Irimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Baia Mare
    Posts
    3,917
    Reputatie
    1
    asta de unde o mai fii aparut?

    btw, o mizerie inseamna ca nu se spala ceea ce ma indoiesc pt ca nu s-a plans nici un adversar/coechipier ca ar mirosi urat pe teren.
    Last edited by Irimus; 12th October 2007 at 19:59.
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]5[/COLOR]-[COLOR="Blue"]1[/COLOR]

  14. #14
    VJ Specialist
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Bucuresti, Romania
    Posts
    6,343
    Reputatie
    1
    Ai vreo dovada sa sustii ca nu mioase? Sau e "clean" pana se dovedeste contrariul?
    "I think right now we are not capable of finding a way to win, or we are unable to, or don't know how to, or something,'' Carter said.

  15. #15
    #3 Irimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Baia Mare
    Posts
    3,917
    Reputatie
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
    Sau e "clean" pana se dovedeste contrariul?
    pai nu?
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]5[/COLOR]-[COLOR="Blue"]1[/COLOR]

  16. #16
    H8ER phyxius's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,741
    Reputatie
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Maggot View Post
    ginobili e un campion
    lucru pe care, evident, l-a realizat de unul singur. nu-i de parca duncan, parker, bowen, horry ar fi ajutat vreodata cu ceva. tipii aia sunt ATAT de overrated...
    [SIZE="1"][B]You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling.[/B][/SIZE]

  17. #17
    VJ Specialist
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Bucuresti, Romania
    Posts
    6,343
    Reputatie
    1
    Sa nu trecem cu vedere totusi ca Ginobili e singurul jucator din lume care sa fi castigat un titlu NBA, un titlu in Euroliga si un titlu olimpic. Eu zic ca asta zice ceva mai mult decat a fi la locul potrivit la timpul potrivit.
    "I think right now we are not capable of finding a way to win, or we are unable to, or don't know how to, or something,'' Carter said.

  18. #18
    JABBAri Parker Bogeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Londra
    Posts
    1,982
    Reputatie
    1
    domnule phyxius ti se pare ca in NBA poti ajunge campion de unul singur???....crezi ca AI ar face fata la Spurs??...
    overrated???...dar MVP-urile lui Duncan nu inseamna nimik??...overrated sunt jucatorii astia care sunt o moda pt copii ce au gasit si ei NBA-ul doar sa fie diferiti...probabil tu crezi ca James, Wade, AI sunt mai buni ca Duncan.
    daca tu crezi asta atunci e vai de tine!

  19. #19
    H8ER phyxius's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,741
    Reputatie
    1
    oh, SNAP!

    sarcasmul cred ca e mort in unele localitati. printre care si cea in care te afli tu. si nu cred ca l-ati omorat asa, pur si simplu. cred ca l-ati biciuit, i-ati invelit capul intr-o piele de lup, l-ati bagat intr-un sac cu un caine, un cocos, o vipera si o maimuta, l-ati dus pana pe malul unui fluviu si l-ati aruncat inauntru sa se inece.
    [SIZE="1"][B]You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling.[/B][/SIZE]

  20. #20
    me BAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    4,470
    Reputatie
    1
    debut in forta pentru maggot.....
    “I weigh 330,000 pounds…I’m the NBA’s best NFL player, and I’ve always been the sexiest 7-footer in the NBA – for 12 years running.”

  21. #21
    JABBAri Parker Bogeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Londra
    Posts
    1,982
    Reputatie
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by phyxius View Post
    oh, SNAP!

    sarcasmul cred ca e mort in unele localitati. printre care si cea in care te afli tu. si nu cred ca l-ati omorat asa, pur si simplu. cred ca l-ati biciuit, i-ati invelit capul intr-o piele de lup, l-ati bagat intr-un sac cu un caine, un cocos, o vipera si o maimuta, l-ati dus pana pe malul unui fluviu si l-ati aruncat inauntru sa se inece.
    te crezi cumva mai grozav dupa postul asta?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •