ROH vs CZW

[Heath Scumm]

Since there are only 2 Romanian members on the forums obsessed with indyz(myself and Batista), I believe that this thread should be better placed here, cuz I've seen plenty of CZW fans in the Multimedia section ... please state your favourite CZW wrestlers, your favourite CZW matches and events and so on! Also, why you like or dislike CZW should be another great topic on which we can discuss!

http://www.czwrestling.com/Home/Images/IndexBanner.jpg

The CZW Best Of The Best 6 Turnament members have been announced :

"The Fallen Angel" Christopher Daniels
Jigsaw
Claudio Castagnoli
Austin Aries
Matt Sydal
Roderick Strong
Derek Frazier
Sonjay Dutt
B-Boy
Sabian
Niles Young
Jay Lethal

Who do you think will be Best Of The Best this year and why?
As far as I'm concerned, Best Of The Best is the Best Indy show out there right now and there's no denying it ... B-Boy is my personal favourite this year but all the contestants are ok as long as Niles Young doesn't win it!

[donnie_middel1]

Where do I start, CZW has been my favorite promotion for a while for the simple reason that they are unlike anything in the biz.

My fav czw wrestlers are : Messiah, Nick Gage, Justice Pain, and Necro Butcher.

The best match ive seen in czw was Jody Fleisch vs Jonny Storm at BOTB2
The best Death Match Ive seen in czw was Wifebeater vs Sick Nick Modno from TOD 1
My fav match would have to be either COD 5 or COD 7.

[Dragon-sin]

The nr. 1 WRESTLING promotion is still R O H : Ring of Honor :D
The nr 1 sports ent. promotion is WWE.

[donnie_middel1]

The nr. 1 WRESTLING promotion is still R O H : Ring of Honor :D
The nr 1 sports ent. promotion is WWE.

Wrong lol, CZW owns RoH just as the picture below demostrates!

The truck represents CZW, the teddy bear represents RoH!!!!!

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a15/donnie_middel1/Owned1.jpg

[Dragon-sin]

^_^ that's nice...however...Brian Danielson alone OWNS CZW. I started watching CZW before ROH and i have to say ROH is much better than CZW.Check out the board on czwfans.com ,the CZW fans are watching more ROH now! Not saying CZW sucks,i like CZW and Chris Hero is one of my fav. wrestlers in the indy scene,but still ROH is nr. 1 :)

[donnie_middel1]

^_^ that's nice...however...Brian Danielson alone OWNS CZW. I started watching CZW before ROH and i have to say ROH is much better than CZW.Check out the board on czwfans.com ,the CZW fans are watching more ROH now! Not saying CZW sucks,i like CZW and Chris Hero is one of my fav. wrestlers in the indy scene,but still ROH is nr. 1 :)


Yah Iam banned from that forum haha, But I find danielson boring , I can watch one or two matches, But I cant watch 5 of his matches in a row.

[Heath Scumm]

^Right here, Donnie, right here ... *gives donnie a High 5* :great: ...

Dragon = a great technical wrestler but I'm into fast paced wrestling so that means Dragon = kinda Boring from time to time ... :rolleyes: ... don't get me wrong, he's a tremendous entertainer, he's got loads of charisma but he's just not my style!

[Heath Scumm]

CZW Best Of The Best 2006 Results

I know that I'd rather see the show but I just couldn't wait that long ... so now you can read them if you want to ... The stuff that happenend during intermission I believe is representative for ROH fans who truly believe their promotion is better than CZW when this clearly is not the case ... I'm sorry those stupid morons cannot understand that these joint shows are booked with the purpose of making both the ROH and CZW fans happy, I believe that CZW put up quite some nice athletes in there so leaving during intermission cuz you don't like CZW is something an @sshole should do ... they shouldn't have come to the show in the first place anyway!

1. Best Of The Best Tournament First Round Match: B-Boy and Austin Aries eliminated Jigsaw following a double pin.
2. Best Of The Best Tournament First Round Match: Claudio Castagnoli and Roderick Strong eliminated Jay Lethal when Strong pinned Lethal.
3. Best Of The Best Tournament First Round Match: Sabian and Matt Sydal eliminated Sonjay Dutt when Sabian pinned Dutt.
*Niles Young took himself out of the tournament and Ruckus is replacing him. The CZW World Heavyweight Title will be on the line.*
4. Best Of The Best Tournament First Round, CZW World Heavyweight Title Match: Ruckus and Christopher Daniels eliminated Derek Frazier when Daniels pinned Frazier. Christopher Daniels returned the CZW World Heavyweight Title to Ruckus because he did not pin the champion.
5. Team AnDrew, Andy Sumner and Drew Gulak defeated Pelle Primeau and Rhett Titus.
6. Winner Of Fall Is #1 Contender To CZW Junior Heavyweight Title: Up In Smoke, Cheech and Cloudy defeated Heretic and Ravage when Cloudy scored the pin.
7. Best Of The Best Tournament Semi-Final Match: Austin Aries defeated B-Boy.
8. Best Of The Best Tournament Semi-Final Match: Claudio Castagnoli defeated Roderick Strong.
9. Best Of The Best Tournament Semi-Final Match: Sabian defeated Matt Sydal.
10. Best Of The Best Tournament Semi-Final, CZW World Heavyweight Title Match: Ruckus defeated Christopher Daniels to retain the CZW World Heavyweight Title.
11. CZW Tag Team Title Match: BLK OUT, Eddie Kingston and Joker defeated Necro Butcher and Super Dragon to retain the CZW Tag Team Titles.
*Intermission: Most ROH fans are leaving.*
12. CZW Junior Heavyweight Title Match: Niles Young defeated Cloudy to retain the CZW Junior Heavyweight Title. Following the match, Cheech attacked Cloudy.
13. Justice Pain and Nick Gage defeated Christopher Bishop and Lionel Knight
14. Best Of The Best Tournament Final, CZW World Heavyweight Title Match: Ruckus defeated Austin Aries, Claudio Castagnoli and Sabian, pinning Aries to retain the CZW World Heavyweight Title and become Best Of The Best 2006.
15. CZW World Heavyweight Title Match: Chris Hero defeated Ruckus to become the NEW CZW World Heavyweight Champion. Following the match, Austin Aries, Roderick Strong, Matt Sydal and Christopher Daniels destroyed Ruckus. Daniels gave Ruckus the Angel's Wings onto the trophy and all the ROH guys grab a piece and continue the beatdown until BLK OUT make the save.

[Dragon-sin]

Chris Hero finally got the strap! First smart move Zandig made since Cage of Death 7.

@Hitscum
The reason ROH fans left was becuz ROH held a show that same night and they wanted to get there,i dont see why you have to call them ''stupid morons''. BOTB 6 SUCKED! and big time...this tournament was so poorly booked ,i mean its CZW..

However the ROH show was awesome ..like always and Homicide killed Necro Butcher ! Check out the results :)

[Heath Scumm]

Have you seen it, BOTB I mean? On paper it looks like the show of the year! I've heard there were many botches but overall the show was considered to be ok!

[Heath Scumm]

The Missile = CZW
The Guy Running = American Dragon (yes, he had a clean haircut back then and yes, he was a nerd and yes, he still is :rolleyes: ) <--- attemptin' some mindless attacks against ROH and their "franchise player" :evil:

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/2114/ownd6yy.gif

[Dragon-sin]

If anyone got owned...it was Hero by Jim Cornette (that is just sad ) :( .Its sad how the CZW fans are buying ROH DVD's and are becoming ROH fans because of this feud ,oh no...wait...its not sad...its so damn funny !

Hitscum, Dragon has been out of the ROH /CZW feud for well over a couple of months .Calling Dragon a nerd is like calling CZW a wrestling company (when its actually Ultraviolent Ent.)

[donnie_middel1]

If anyone got owned...it was Hero by Jim Cornette (that is just sad ) :( .Its sad how the CZW fans are buying ROH DVD's and are becoming ROH fans because of this feud ,oh no...wait...its not sad...its so damn funny !

Hitscum, Dragon has been out of the ROH /CZW feud for well over a couple of months .Calling Dragon a nerd is like calling CZW a wrestling company (when its actually Ultraviolent Ent.)

Its also funny how RoH fans are becoming CZW fans because of this fued.

And Ive been told that BOTB 6 was retched, Not because of the booking but the performance, I guess alot of the roh guys along with the czw guys, just didnt click, Chris Daniels did horrible Iam told.

[Heath Scumm]

Indeed, although it seems that both companies have tremendous talent, they just don't get along in the ring ... And that's just sad ...

ANd though the ROH smug fans won't admit it, some (and by that I mean "most") of them secretly watch CZW tapes of all former and actual junior heavyweights thinkin' : "Damn! I wish we had that kind of athletes but we only get TNA tallent and some Japan stuff once in a while!" ... and also some (and by that I mean once again "most") watch the COD tapes and think : "Damn! I wish our scramble cage matches were as entertaining and brutal as their COD matches" ...

@Batista - you know I'm kiddin' :) ... I love both CZW and ROH but I consider CZW the better company of the 2!

[donnie_middel1]

So So So true.

[Heath Scumm]

Extremely important : Cage Of Death @ ROH

June 12th: John Zandig answered ROH's challenge for Steel Cage Warfare on 7/15 when ROH returns to Philly and the National Guard Armory. At last Saturday's CZW show, Zandig put down Steel Cage Warfare and challenged ROH to a Cage Of Death on 7/15. Well here is our answer. Zandig, you bring your Cage Of Death to the National Guard Armory on July 15th. We will have a ROH team ready to fight anyone from CZW. ROH will enter your Cage Of Death. We will have both bleachers open again and a ROH side and a CZW side so the playing field will be level. We are ready for whatever ultraviolence you have in store for us in the Cage Of Death on July 15th. Get your tickets now at ROHwrestling.com and by calling 215-781-2500. The Cage Of Death is the most violent, insane, brutal match of the year in CZW. CZW's Cage Of Death event is always the show of the year every December. Now you will see Cage Of Death in July and Adam Pearce, BJ Whitmer, Ace Steel and Samoa Joe are ready!!!

Can you imagine what will go down at this mixed show event?

This is beyond what I've expected and I truly hope is is NOT the end of this ROH vs CZW feud(though it seems it might be) cuz it would be kinda sad if these 2 feds would just lie down and die ... they should somehow unite their rosters and try more mix shows in 2006 cuz I still believe there's plenty more where that came from.

Who do you think will be part of the 2 teams?

I speculate that Team CZW could be : Zandig, Necro, Dragon, Hero and maybe Claudio while Team ROH could be :Joe,Pearce, Whitmer,Steel and maybe I'm bold enough to asume American Dragon would step inside the demonic structure!!!???

[donnie_middel1]

Team CZW will be : Zandig, Pain, Gage, and Maybe Messiah, not to sure who roh will bring.

[Dragon-sin]

I think they will throw Buther in the mix,they have to,he's been in this feud from the start.

As far as ROH ,the team i would pick would be : BJ,Pearce,Homicide(i dont know about this) and i think Joe.

I dont know why they are booking a COD match now! i mean this feud could have easily gone until december ,but i think there will be a twist of fate(no pun intended) or ROH wanted this feud to end.

[donnie_middel1]

Well Zandig did not want to do this fued to begin with, But CZW learned first hand that if you drag on a invasion/inter promotional fued, then it will grow stale quickyly, It happened with the CZW/BJW fued, so by ending it early they will be able to brng it back later in the future.

[snotsnit]

*Looks around and sees no one coming*
ROH RULES!!!!!!!!!

[Heath Scumm]

^Oh, boy, but I'm right Behind you :evil: ...

*turns snotshit around and sends him head first into the canvas with a Psycho Driver* :evil:

[Big Sexy]

"You boys are going nowhere!"

*out of the blue a huge old dirty fat bastard comes out and smashes the hell out of the indy lovers with a wooden 2x4 wrapped in barbed wire

"I go hardcore from now on!" sais the fat old dirty bastard and farts noisly.

[Heath Scumm]

http://www.onlinesport.ro/forum/showthread.php?p=710353#post710353

Heretic - a wrestler can put on a great performance in CZW as well as in any ROH high flying match ... What are your oppinions about this wrestler?

[snotsnit]

Kevin Steen and Claudio Castagnoli.
they are my favorite CZW wrestlers.

[Heath Scumm]

^ And why is that?

[Heath Scumm]

CZW 7/8/06 - "A Prelude To Violence"
Attendence: Approx. 450
1. CZW Junior Heavyweight Title Match: Sexxxy Eddy defeated Niles Young following Total Sexxxtacy to become the NEW CZW Junior Heavyweight Champion.
2. Sonjay Dutt and Adam Flash wrestled Messiah and Luke to a No Contest when Messiah, who was taken to the back due to an injury, returned and turned on Luke, joining Pandora's Box. Following the match, Luke was Crucifix Powerbombed through a table.
3. Team AnDrew, Andy Sumner and Drew Gulak defeated The New Jersey All-Stars, Lucky and JC Ryder in a very spotty, but very enjoyable match when Gulak made Lucky submit.
4. Cheech defeated Cloudy following The Deluxe.
5. BLK OUT, Joker and Sabian defeated The H8 Club, Nick Gage and Justice Pain & Kevin Steen and El Generico when Sabian pinned El Generico, hitting a Top Rope Double Stomp on both Generico and Gage, following a Gage Piledriver on Generico.
6. JC Bailey defeated Danny Havoc.
7. If Eddie Kingston Wins He Receives A CZW World Heavyweight Title Shot: Claudio Castagnoli defeated Eddie Kingston.
8. Jigsaw, Derek Frazier and Jon Dahmer defeated Hallowicked, Rick Feinberg and DJ Hyde when the Technicos pinned Feinberg.
9. CZW World Heavyweight Title Match: Chris Hero defeated Necro Butcher to retain the CZW World Heavyweight Title.
10. Barbed Wire Ropes Match: Ruckus wrestled Zandig to a No Contest due to a big schmoz involving BLK OUT and The Forefathers of CZW. After the match it was announced LOBO will be competing in Tournament Of Death on July 29th

Pretty interesting show overall ... I would love to get my hands on that one!

Also both feds are getting ready for what it seems to be their big show-off as on July the 15th Cage Of Death is coming to ROH.

Besides the Cage of Death match itself, this show is loaded. Other matches include:

ROH World Title Match
Bryan Danielson vs. Sonjay Dutt

Pure Title Match
Nigel McGuinness defends against Roderick Strong

Special Challenge Match
AJ Styles vs. Davey Richards

Dragon Gate Challenge Match
Shingo Takagi vs. Delirious

First Time Ever Match
Jay & Mark Briscoe vs. Irish Airborne

Already signed: Samoa Joe; Adam Pearce; Jimmy Rave with Prince Nana & Daizee Haze; Homicide & Ricky Reyes with Julius Smokes; Colt Cabana; BJ Whitmer plus more to be added!!!

One thing I'm not getting is why those 2 feds won't join rosters just for one event and put on a FULL ROH vs CZW Show ... I mean we should have a CZW vs ROH confrontation in every match ... to bad we won't get to see that!

[snotsnit]

Go ROH *runs away and hopes no one comes after me*

[Heath Scumm]

2 Days to go till Cage Of Death comes to ROH ... Oh Boy Oh Boy! :great:

[snotsnit]

We need to get that match on this fourm as soon as we can because it is going to be GOOD.

[Heath Scumm]

I'm going for the full event rather than the Main Event! :)

[Dark_Dreamer]

What are the chances of someone taking the next 5 mintues and explaining what ROH /CZW are? I have never heard of them.

Thanks for any help.

[Heath Scumm]

Ok! 5 minutes and 5 minutes only :D ...

Well, the US, Great Britain, Japan and Mexico are filled with pro-wrestling promotions ... In the United States there is a Global promotion (a promotion which can put on a show and defend titles all over the world) namely The WWE, a National Promotion (although all of its shows are taped in the same old location, it has national exposure via its television contract with Spike TV) namely TNA and several regional and local Independent Federations called Indyz ...

The best Independent promotions in the U.S.A. are Ring Of Honor, Combat Zone Wrestling, IWA MidSouth and Pro-Wrestling Guerilla ...

ROH is very different from any other type of fed because it has very few "sports entertainment" bits, only good quality matches and bitter rivalries which are expanded via promos ... Most of TNA's X-Division is formed out of Ring Of Honor guys ...

Their most influential wrestlers are people like : American Dragon Bryan Danielson, KENTA, Samoa Joe, Austin Aries, Roderick Strong, AJ Styles, Fallen Angel, Alex Shelley, Jimmy Rave and many many others ... ROH recently released 2 of their biggest names in Lethal and Low Ki/Senshi who are now working almost full time for TNA ...

CZW is a hardcore/deathmatch product filled with sheer brutality and tremendous pro-wrestling. Thier owner John Zandig bought the old ECW Arena in Philly and turned it into the CZW Arena. The CZW product has greatly evolved since 2000 turning from a backyardish deathmatch style type of fed into something extremely entertaining and very similar to what old ECW was all about ... The evolution of the product is obvious though ... I would dare say that if the original ECW would have continued their work, their nowadays product would be very similar to CZW's.

This year, one of CZW's top guys - Chris Hero- starting ranting over the Internet about how CZW rules and that he should definitely get a title shot at ROH's World Champion American Dragon ... Dragon soon responded and him and a couple of ROH guys invaded the CZW Arena ... A war between the two promotions started right away and this is no doubt the best thing going on in pro-wrestling this year ... Both CZW and ROH tried to book their shows on the same days so both the CZW and ROH crowds would be merged and this whole thing escalated beyond imagination for several months...

Die hard wrestling fans started to take sides and it all culminated with ROH invading CZW's traditional Best Of The Best (some sort of a King Of the Ring type Tournament) ... the World Heavyweight CZW Champion won that tournament ...

Now CZW invaded ROH and brought their most sadistic structure to ROH - The Cage Of Death ... This is the most violent type of pro-wrestling matches ever ... people getting sick bumped from cages on concrete floor, glass, trashcans, tables ... well anything goes ... The CZW team will face the ROH team in what seems to be the final chapter in this Tremendous 5 Star saga that may have changed the Indy circuit as we know it!

[Dark_Dreamer]

LOL, Where have I been during all of this then?

I know this may sound like a stupid question but this inavding thing. Is it real or just part of the performance?

There that any web sites to these things? Maybe I can order a DVD or something like that. A guy I know from work orders all these bootleg DVD's from Japan and it sounds a lot like the CZW that you just described. I would love to find out more about them if you dont mind directing me.

Thank you Very much man!! If you ever need 5 minutes from me just let me know. Hell, I may ever give you 6! LOL

[Dark_Dreamer]

Ok I found CZW's web site and now I have a favor to ask. How about someone who knows about this to check out this website.

http://www.smartmarkvideo.com/cgi-bin/store/cp-app.cgi?usr=51J9558456&rnd=4606660&rrc=N&affl=&cip=&act=&aff=&pg=cat&ref=czwdvd

If you dont mind tell me the best 3 DVDs from all of those. I am pretty sure that these sound pretty good:

CZW DVD Dec. 10, 2005 ’’Cage Of Death 7’’ - Philadelphia, PA
Price: $20.00

CZW DVD Cage Of Death II & They Said It Couldnt Be Done
Price: $20.00

If you know of any better how about letting me know.

[Heath Scumm]

I suggest any Best Of The Best Tournament ... This is why I love Combat Zone Wrestling ...

Only if you're into excesive brutality you should order a Cage Of Death ...

Any CZW show from this year and from 2005 pretty much ruled cuz that's what got the greatest USA Indy (ROH) to give CZW a chance in working with them ... CZW had 2 more Invasion angles that were very nicely put together, one in Japan against BJPW (the most brutal Deathmatch company in Japan) and against Ian Rotten's IWA MidSouth, a feud that put both companies over!

If you want to see some more CZW go to our Multimedia section, you'll get some good Highlight Videos, matches and shows for what CZW is all about, also some ROH Matches and shows ...

[Dragon-sin]

@Hitscum

Great description of the feud however one more big thing 2 add there, in a 3 on 3 match at ROH's 100th show,CZW won the match and spoiled the party for ROH.That was a big hit in this feud.

@Dark_Dreamer
CZW DVD Cage Of Death II & They Said It Couldnt Be Done - This one is not so good.Cage of Death II is pretty much a backyard show,with a lot of bumps and untraviolence all the way.They Said It Couldnt Be Done is pretty much the same but it also features Ric Blade botching a swanton of a truck, he actually missed the tabel and landed pretty hard.

I think the best dvd's for a new fan would have to be : Night of Infamy 4,High Stakes night show (this DVD was actually filmed for PPV!! but the deal never happend) ,Best of the Best 4 (just an awesome display of what CZW's finest can do),Cage of Death 6 (my fav. CZW show) and just for how brutal it was i say get Tournament of Death 3 only if you have a strong stomach and like hardcore wrestling really hardcore.

[Dark_Dreamer]

Thank you both for your feedback. I will check out everything that the both of you have said. Since I really dont know anyone from any of those cards I can go by who is wrestling who. I can only go by what you guys tell me and with just sounds good.

[Heath Scumm]

@Hitscum

Great description of the feud however one more big thing 2 add there, in a 3 on 3 match at ROH's 100th show,CZW won the match and spoiled the party for ROH.That was a big hit in this feud.

@Dark_Dreamer
CZW DVD Cage Of Death II & They Said It Couldnt Be Done - This one is not so good.Cage of Death II is pretty much a backyard show,with a lot of bumps and untraviolence all the way.They Said It Couldnt Be Done is pretty much the same but it also features Ric Blade botching a swanton of a truck, he actually missed the tabel and landed pretty hard.

I think the best dvd's for a new fan would have to be : Night of Infamy 4,High Stakes night show (this DVD was actually filmed for PPV!! but the deal never happend) ,Best of the Best 4 (just an awesome display of what CZW's finest can do),Cage of Death 6 (my fav. CZW show) and just for how brutal it was i say get Tournament of Death 3 only if you have a strong stomach and like hardcore wrestling really hardcore.

I disagree with your recommendations ... if you have to introduce a fan to CZW, recommending The Torunament Of Death is wrong ... also, you must not recommend Backyard Shows from the beginning of the company as they were crap and they do not truly depict the level of intensity CZW is now on!

Any Best Of The Best Tournament is a must see, also the Cage Of Death shows are pretty interesting, but I believe CZW has only become a true independent federation since moving into the ECW Arena and since Zandig starting involving himself less in the booking part of the show! The early stage of the company is as some say "trashcore", a lot of brawling and a very poor backyard look of the product! It's nowhere near what ROH brought to the table back then!

[Dragon-sin]

^I havent made any backyard recommendations ,NOI 4,High Stakes Night Shown,BOTB 4 and COD 6 are all awesome shows ,not backyard ones.As for TOD 3,i belive its important for a piece of history however this one is very very brutal.

[Heath Scumm]

Oh Sorry! I missread!

@Dark_Dreamer
CZW DVD Cage Of Death II & They Said It Couldnt Be Done - This one is not so good.Cage of Death II is pretty much a backyard show,with a lot of bumps and untraviolence all the way.They Said It Couldnt Be Done is pretty much the same but it also features Ric Blade botching a swanton of a truck, he actually missed the tabel and landed pretty hard.

[snotsnit]

Well, ROH won the cage of death. So this war has no clear winner as of now. But I know the best way for the teams to torture the other team, they should make them do a sleep study. I just had one and it was annoying, they attach around 21 wires to your body with tape all over you and make you sleep on this hard bed. Don't do a sleep study unless you really have to.

[Heath Scumm]

Yes, indeed! What may be the final chapter of this unbelieveble feud ended up as another ordinary ROH show

Results here - http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/results/roh/060715.html

I guess this shows once again that CZW books better as almost 30% to 40% of each CZW show was for promoting the Interpromotional feud while ROH never spent more than 20% of the show trying to put over CZW as CZW put them over ... This is unfair and it shows once again that ROH has that "elite" attitude while they are nothing more than another Indy fed ... Don't believe me, just check out their polls on www.rohwrestling.com, there are never more than 200 people voting on those polls! That, I believe shows us how "big" ROH truly is!

[Heath Scumm]

The BlackOut shoots on Ring Of Honor and the CZW fans ...

"Don't get me wrong," said Joker, "we love CZW. We're here and we just want to help it. But sometimes we hate it, and sometimes we hate the fans. The Philly crowds have gotten too spoiled. They can't appreciate things anymore. Here, they want to see blood. They want to see broken bones. Someone jumping off the (freaking) roof and break their (frigging) back. They don't care, here, about the wrestlers. There are a lot of guys here," he said, illustrating his point, "like Necro Butcher and Zandig who have broken their bodies for these people, and they're still not getting appreciated."

What's worse, they note, is that there seems to be no way to try to change the thinking of the fans, to teach them to appreciate the less hardcore elements of the art.

"If CZW were to start changing things," speculated Kingston, "and started adding (traditional mat-based) wrestling, started adding moves (and reducing the violence), I guarantee that the fans would start (dumping) all over it. These (people) don't appreciate how hard it is to do what we do, they just don't care."

"People don't understand the hours on the road," he added, "the commitment (wrestlers) make. A lot of the time, when you're first starting out, paying your dues means you don't get paid. But we go out there for the love and passion of professional wrestling. And these people don't get it."
"All we ask," said Ruckus, "is that people show us some respect. We come here every month, and work every weekend, driving nine or fourteen hours to go someplace to wrestle. Appreciate what we do."

It's appreciated by other fans, they say, like those of Ring of Honor, who traditionally eschew violent matches in favour of more scientific fare. But even though the BLK Out members say they could do put on those types of matches, they find it unlikely they'll ever get the chance. Mainly because their association with CZW has pigeon-hold them in the eyes off other promoters and other fans.

"If we were to leave CZW," Ruckus surmised, "I swear that we'd get more bookings somewhere else. It's like the in thing for people to talk (bad) about CZW. We can put on a really good match with just about anyone. We could put on a match, move for move, that people loved seeing in another company. But if we did it in CZW, people would (criticize) it, just because it's CZW. Take me, for example. Someone who doesn't know who I am hears on the internet that I'm in CZW so I must be just a 'spot-monkey'. That (messes) it up for me when some other booker reads that, and won't even give me a shot, even though they've never seen me. But I can work with a lot of the ROH guys, and I'd love the chance to work with them. But because I'm with CZW, I can't even get a break."

Sabian described the double-standard thusly: "It's (bogus). They have to look beyond the CZW name, and see what we can do in the ring."

Not being to get out and wrestle in front of other crowds is especially frustrating to the quartet, since they're so passionate about their craft.

"We appreciate the art of the sport," Kingston said. "We all study wrestling. We watch the greats, we study what they do. (The legends and veterans of wrestling) know that it's not just about taking a chair shot and bleeding all over, (but rather) it's about story-telling. It's an art form, and a lot of the other guys don't appreciate that. Guys like Dick Murdoch, Dick Slater, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes ... if they came to a lot of the independent shows today, they would ask themselves what happened to the sport that they busted their asses for."

Continued Joker, "In ECW, you had guys like Rob Van Dam and Sabu who were breaking tables, yes, but the way they did it, it told a story. Everything they did had meaning to it. Nowadays, you have guys here that try to mimic that, but they can't. They hit you with 25 chair shots and there's still ten minutes left to go in the match. It's great that you can do a 720-splash, but don't (go and) do it at the beginning of the match. Guys today don't get that."


I agree with the fact that Ruckus (who is one of the best athletes out there), Joker and Sabian can't get a shot in ROH mainly because they're part of CZW ... it's all about the "elite thinking" of ROH fans that use the word "spot" and the word "monkey" way to oftenwhen they have people like Jack Evans or Deranged on their roster ... well, anyway, I believe that this ROH vs CZW's purpose was that real athletes from CZW could get a chance in the "elite world" of Ring Of Honor ... yet, I doubt it will happen soon, although the fans seem to be demanding guys like Super Dragon or The BlackOut.

[vitamin]

I'm way way behind the convo going on in this topic, so maybe I missed it, but how in the bleeping bleepity bleep bleep can you not reccomend Cage Of Death 5 and TOD 2 to Dark Dreamer? TOD2 specifically for the Mondo/Zandig spot, COD5 because it was the best COD match of them all, and of course the Chris Cash v. Joker ladder match, the greatest ladder match anyone has done anywhere at any time.

As for HitScum's previous post, he's right about the ROH fans and it's a shame. ROH fans are a crowd that will not give you a chance, they either already liked you when you got there, or they're just going to get on your ass and be unimpressed even if you put on a killer match. Basically, their opinion of Wrestler X is already decided before they step in a ROH ring for the first time, and that opinion ain't changing :mda:

[Heath Scumm]

I hate Tournaments Of Death ... I wouldn't recommend a TOD to a fan if he's new to CZW ... they are gruesome, gorish, whatever you wanna call them ... I sincerely was afraid for Mondos life in that sick bump, that sh*t shouldn't happen to anyone ...

As far as for COD5 goes, I recommended Joker and that match in the Recommendation topic!

[vitamin]

Yeah, but you're a big Mondo fan, don't you agree that it's a match that needs to be seen to really understand how far he was willing to take it? If you're going to bring a mainstream wrestling fan into the indy wrestling world, you gotta get them familiar with Sick Nick ;)


Hey, I just thought of a good way to give Dark Dreamer some more in-depth analysis of two CZW shows, COD5 and and TOD2 and a few other independant fed tapes he might want to check out (also from smartmarkvideo) , and plug my website at the same time. If you check out my blog at http://indywrestlereviews.blogspot.com/ , I put up reviews of tapes I've watched. Maybe it'll help you and bring my total viewers up to 5 at the same time ;)

[Heath Scumm]

Nice way 2 plug in your blog ... again ...

Well, feel free 2 do that anytime you add new posts, I'm sure people who are interested will read your reviews ... or you can just write your reviews on the forums ... same thing 4 me ...

Let me say something about your posts in the blog ...

The most enjoyable post was definitely the one about Cage of Death 5 simply because I have never seen the whole event but only the 2 matches you highlighted : Cash vs Joker and The Cage Of Death ... This is also the only review I have issues with ... you said that this entire show's weak point was the package you received your CD's/DVD's in ... and on the other hand you seemed to go bashing the entire event except the 2 matches ...

But overall, Your reviews are pretty funny, quite spacey and not boring to read at all ... I would suggest though to write those after you've cooled down from seing the show because you seem quite hyped ...

I also cannot enjoy any XPW show ...

[vitamin]

You're right about my initial comment about the packaging for COD 5, I'm going to be altering that shortly. Basically I was caught up in the final two matches I just watched as I wrote it and had temporarily forgot how average the top half of the card was ;) The Ironman match and the Sabian match I had no problems with, there was just nothing in particular in either that made me say "oh crap, I got to mention this spot". As for me in your analysis "bashing" a majority of the show, I can't say I disagree, but I tried to make it clear that the final two matches are worth your time.

Thanks for the positive feedback, and yeah, after that DVD I watched I don't think I can enjoy XPW either, my God that show was terrible ;)

[Heath Scumm]

I recently re-watched the ROH vs CZW Cage Of Death ... It was funny how all CZW fans chanted 6 on 5 yet nobody gave a f@$# ... cuz it was 6 on f*ckin' 5, no matter what you say ...

And when CZW fans chanted "Boring!" at the end when it came to Cornette's speach, all ROH fans started chanting : "Get the fuck out!", showing the respect they actually give towards the other fed and its great athletes who dominated the entire match and would have easily won if it wasn't a 6 on 5 situation ...

So once again, after a long long time since it happened, F%$# ROH, CZW Owned that feud!